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Topic: Amerec AG7 with a AK5  (Read 5060 times)
Randallsg
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« on: September 04, 2012, 02:24:35 PM »

I have an Amerec AK5 steam generator, which is a bit undersized for the sauna space for which it is intended.  I was able to purchase an Amerec AG7 (very inexpensively).  Could the AK5 be used as the master generator to control the AG7?

I understand that the AG7 is used as part of a two-part steam generator system; for example with the AK10 to create the AK17. 

This would be an inexpensive solution to my undersized system...
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Jennifer
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« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2012, 02:53:43 PM »

Hello Randallsg and welcome to our forum.
If you were to put the two units together with the AK5 as the master and the AG7 as the secondary, then you would create a 12KW system which may be way oversized for your environment.  You would get heat and vapor, but no fog.
Also, you would have to upgrade your electrical wire and breaker size.
You will need 2 of everything, 2 steam lines, 2 water lines, 2 drain lines, etc.  but only 1 control.
First, before getting too far ahead of ourselves, let's size up your environment to determine what would be the appropriate size.
Please provide me with your steam room details of Length, Width, Height, finished wall materials such as tile, marble, etc. and if any walls of the home are common to the homes exterior.

Looking forward to assisting you.
Jennifer
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Randallsg
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« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2012, 03:26:03 PM »

The system will likely not be oversized...

Neither the AK5 or the AG7 are currently installed, so plumbing (stream/water/drain lines) and electrical are not an issue as this will be part of a ambitious bathroom renovation project.  However, the size of the space is set, as well as my preference for materials.

The steam room will be a wet room, which will include a freestanding soaking tub and shower in the enclosure.  The rough interior dimensions will be:
  * 5' 10" deep
  * 8' 6" wide
  * Ceiling height will be dropped to 8' - 9' sloped (currently 12' ceiling).

The walls will be tiled with travertine, over rockboard (or similar) and waterproofed with Schluter (or similar) products.  The upper portion of the 8' 6" wall facing the bathroom will be predominantly glass, and the back wall opposite this is an exterior wall (well insulated, 6" studs).

With respect to electrical, we have 200 AMP, 2 phase service to the breaker with room for additional circuits.  Pulling appropriate sized cable to the generators will not be an issue.

The opportunity to purchase very inexpensive AK5 and AG7 steam generators is what started me down this path.

Have not made any decision with regards to controls (prefer K200i), or if the system will include lighting / aromatherapy / fan.

Appreciate your advice. 
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Jennifer
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2012, 11:24:40 AM »

Randallsg,
We are confirming the possibility of using the AK5 and AG7 together.
I also noticed you are interested in using the Freedom control.
Can you please provide us with the serial numbers of the 2 generators you have so we can also confirm whether these generators are Freedom control generators?
Thanks.
Jennifer
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Randallsg
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2012, 11:58:27 AM »

Agreed.  I have 3 questions; two short term and one longer term.

1. Can the AK5 and AG7 work together, with the AK5 acting as master and the AG7 operating as slave.
2. Based upon the sauna size and materials, what are the Kw requirements?  Is the combined AK5/AG7 appropriate for a space this size?

Lastly,
3. Could a K200i work with the above combination? I could also be happy with a K60 style control, so I am not particularly worried about control of the system now. 

I am traveling on business this week and will not be able to post serial numbers until later this weekend.

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Randallsg
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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2012, 12:02:35 PM »

As an aside, I have used 4-5 different on-line sizing calculators (including the  "steambathsauna" version) and the outcome is all over the board.  It would seem that there is a wide range of "right" anwsers.
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Randallsg
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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2012, 12:23:37 PM »

Turns out that I had some images of the AK5 and AG7.  Here are the serial numbers:
   * AK5 - D070712235
   * AG7 - N084971006
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Jennifer
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2012, 01:19:00 PM »

The AK5 is too old to use the Freedom control but could if the PC Board were to be changed.
The AK5 is from July 1994 and the AG7 is from August 2004.
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Jennifer
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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2012, 01:25:05 PM »

The AK5 and AG7 can be tandem together to form a 12KW system.  If the AG7 is new in the box, there should be a tandem cable included already.  If not, then a cable will need to be purchased.

The K200i will not work with the AK5 as it is too old.  The AK5 is from July 1994.  However, it may be possible to change the PC Board in the AK5 to make it work with the K200i.

We have to run the sizing for from what your raw cubic feet is, you are already at about 10-12KW but then when we add for travertine, glass, exterior wall, etc.  It will require a larger unit.  In theory, the 12KW will produce vapor and a lot of dense fog but will take more than the average 15-20 minutes to heat the room and materials.
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Jennifer
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« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2012, 01:32:30 PM »

Using the Amerec Sizing Tool and the SteamSaunaBath Sizing Tool, both come back stating that a 30KW (3 tandem system) would be appropriate.

I would like to further discuss this with one of our Techs who is an expert at sizing (he's been in the business for over 20years and is a bathing enthusiast), to confirm our recommendations for you.  We size it, we guarantee it's performance.

Thank you for your patience.
Jennifer
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Randallsg
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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2012, 07:39:44 AM »

Appreciate the information.  Very interesting to see how old these "new" units are.  They are in original packaging (albeit dusty) and never installed.

I will need the tandem cable, as it was not in the packaging.  Do you have a part #?

Should I check with Amerec directly to find out if it is possible to swap out the PC board (and at what cost)?

I will be interested in what your technical folks think about sizing, 30KW seems really large.  My guess is that materials (glass, travertine, external wall) is driving up the sizing estimate versus the actual volume of the space.  I would speculate that there is a diminishing return on the size of the unit, at some point in time the air will be heated to a maximum safe temperature and then only "time" will accomplish heating the enclosure (walls, ceiling, etc.).

Thx
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Jennifer
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« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2012, 01:21:04 PM »

You make some great points on sizing, however, according to Amerec sizing guidelines, the AK5/AG7 12KW system will not be sufficient for your environment.  It may eventually do the job but one's idea of a warm or hot steam bath and the time they are willing to wait is relative.  You could always install larger wire and give it a try.  Should you not be satisfied, you could then get some additional parts to up-size each unit.  That said, we would not recommend nor sell a 12KW system for your room.

If you desire to move forward with the AK12 setup then you would need a tandem cable (item# 5304-031), freedom control (item# 9221-018) and a PC board (item# 3224-012) for your desired configuration.  These are all in stock.

Amerec prefers that an “Amerec technical specialist” convert the system to operate with the Freedom Control K200i.  If you would like, you can ship the AK5 to us and we can perform the conversion and test the steam bath generator for proper operation.  We could also ship you the components and recommend a local technician to complete the work.

We are very excited about your project to create a luxury bathing environment and want to get involved.  Bathing environment design including shower lighting, steam shower ventilation, bathing space layout, shower body sprays and soaking/plunge tubs are the foundation of our unique skills and talents.  Check out these two links that share the progressive bathing environments that can change your life.
Rediscover Bathing I
Rediscover Bathing II

Let us know how we can help.
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Randallsg
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« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2012, 03:12:21 PM »

Jennifer, many thanks for the guidance.

Basis your comment "you could then get some additional parts to up-size each unit" can I assume that one can switch out the heating elements in the AK5/AG7 for larger heating elements, given that the steam generators have appropriately sized electric? 

If so, what is the maximum size these units could be upgraded?  10Kw?

Trying to budget for worse-case.... how many heating elements for each unit and what are their part numbers?  Are parts other than the heating elements needed to upgrade?

Thx, Randall
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Jennifer
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« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2012, 09:00:00 AM »

Randall -

Each steam bath generator can be increased in power to 10Kw.  So you could attempt your steam bath project with what you have (12Kw in total power) and then increase the power to 20Kw should you not be satisfied.  By running the larger wire size, you effectively build in for this eventuality.

Each steam bath generator uses two heating elements.  You would require four 5Kw heating elements, Item# 3003-10 at a cost of roughly $29.00 each.  No other parts would be required for this conversion.  Note:  Amerec recommends a conversion of this nature be performed by a factory trained professional and disclaims any and all warranties from such a modification.
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